Debated in Parliament on 16 Oct 2024.
Debate resumed.
Minister Chee Hong Tat.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank hon Members who have supported the Bill. I note that the WP plans to abstain and is not supporting the Bill.
Members have raised several important considerations relating to the Bill and I will summarise into three categories: first, how to strike a balance between regulations to protect public interest and maintain investor confidence; second, how does the Government ensure that inter-agency information exchange and coordination does not compromise on commercial confidentiality; and finally, clarifications on the capital reduction plan, Bill parameters and coverage.
Sir, please allow me to address the key points and the questions that Members have raised. Mr Liang Eng Hwa, Mr Saktiandi Supaat, Ms Joan Pereira, Mr Neil Parekh, Mr Mark Lee, Ms Usha Chandradas and Mr Yip Hon Weng have recognised the merits of the Government's intervention in this deal, while raising questions about its impact on business confidence and Singapore's role as an international insurance hub. They also asked about the likelihood of future Government interventions and how transparency can be maintained to preserve trust in our system.
I would like to assure the House that Singapore remains committed to upholding our status as an open, rules-based and pro-enterprise business hub. The same applies to MAS as the financial sector regulator. There is no change in this regard. We will continue to welcome investors with our business-friendly operating environment. When legislative amendments are proposed, the Bills are presented and debated in Parliament in an open and transparent manner. We would explain the rationale for the proposed changes, just like what we are doing now for this Bill.
MAS maintains a regulatory approach that is consultative and provides stability and predictability for industry players. As a standard practice, MAS consults on major policy and legislative changes. For complex policies, there could be a series of consultation papers to obtain feedback from stakeholders over an extended period. During these consultations, MAS would incorporate relevant feedback and address concerns that arise.
This Bill is an exception due to its urgency, because the deal with Allianz is under consideration by shareholders, and it is tightly scoped to co-operative insurers, insurers that have assumed the business of a co-op, or have a substantial shareholder or effective controller that is a co-op. This recognises that insurance co-ops are a special category of insurers with a social mission. As there is currently no provision in the Insurance Act which allows MAS to consider the views of MCCY in the case of an application relating to an insurer that is either a co-op or linked to a co-op, the proposed amendments would allow the Minister-in-charge of MAS to consider the views of the Minister responsible for the administration of the CSA and to withhold approval involving such applications if the Minister-in-charge of MAS considers that it is in the public interest to do so. The Bill does not affect any other insurer or the financial industry at large.
Mr Saktiandi asked about the Bill's impact on existing free trade agreements for activities in the financial services sector. It does not impact our free trade agreements. As I have explained earlier, we do not have concerns with the suitability of Allianz to be a majority shareholder of Income. Our concerns lie in the terms and structure of this particular deal, and such concerns would apply whether the acquiror is Allianz or any other entity, and whether the acquiror is local or foreign.
To Mr Neil Parekh's comment that control of Income should not be ceded to foreigners, I would reiterate that the Government agrees with NE's intention and Income's intention to find a strategic partner to strengthen its competitiveness and capital base in the long term so that it can continue to do well to do good. If the concerns of MCCY can be addressed in a future deal, the Government is open to consider such a proposal, whether it is from a foreign or local entity. The most important consideration is the outcome – that Income becomes a stronger entity that is able to serve its policy-holders well and fulfil its social mission effectively.
To Mr Saktiandi's question and also Mr Leong Mun Wai's question on whether we have engaged Allianz, the answer is yes, and they have indicated that they understood the reasons for the Government's decision. Mr Leong can have a look at their public statement.
Mr Neil Parekh asked how the Government will ensure that any future partner can contribute to the financial strength of Income, while still preserving its social mission. MAS has regulatory requirements and guidance in place for insurers to maintain sufficient capital reserves to meet policy-holder claims, including under adverse conditions, and for insurers to have robust risk management frameworks in place. As an insurer, Income continues to meet these requirements. With the Bill, the Minister-in-charge of MAS can, in giving his approval for an entity to obtain effective control or substantial shareholding in Income, impose conditions to ensure Income's commitments to its social mission are upheld post-transaction.
We agree with Mr Mark Lee that businesses should be given an opportunity to address and correct draft plans before final decisions or interventions are made, and this is, in fact, what MAS has done for the proposed transaction. As highlighted in Minster Edwin Tong's Ministerial Statement, while the Government has decided that it would not be in the public interest for the transaction, in its current form, to proceed, we are open for NE to work out a new deal, whether with Allianz or another entity, which can address MCCY's concerns.
Sir, there is a balance to be struck between effective Government functioning through information sharing and preserving commercial confidentiality to maintain investor confidence. Several Members spoke about this. And as I explained in the House on Monday, information provided to MAS as part of its supervisory dealings with financial institutions, including Income and Allianz, is confidential and not normally shared with other Government agencies. We recognise that companies submit such information for a specific regulatory purpose and not to enable general Government evaluation. And as Mr Mark Lee correctly pointed out, some of this information may involve sensitive decisions.
In this particular instance, Income had special characteristics. As a former co-op, it had previously been under the regulation of MCCY before its corporatisation. MCCY maintains an interest in whether Income continues to perform its social mission, as this was the representation given when Income was allowed to corporatise. Hence, while conducting its assessment, MAS considered that it was in the public interest to share the information with MCCY.
Ms Joan Pereira and Mr Mark Lee asked whether the information sharing and coordination among agencies could have been done earlier. MAS received business projections of the cash remittance in mid-July and was reviewing the information. As the MAS team was still assessing the proposal, they did not surface this information to the MAS Board before the 6 August Parliament Sitting. I had explained this on Monday. After the Parliamentary Sitting on 6 August, MAS saw that Income's planned capital optimisation and cash remittance could be relevant to MCCY's views on the proposed transaction and shared the information with MCCY. The Government then reached a view that it was not in the public interest for the deal in its current form to proceed.
Ms Jessica Tan, Mr Saktiandi and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas explained this well. The decision to halt the deal in its current form and the fact that we are here today to debate and approve the amendments to the Insurance Act demonstrate that due process works. It is about coming to Parliament after putting together the full picture, working across the whole-of-Government to see what is the overall assessment of how to move forward on this important issue, and then coming to Parliament to present the information and proposals for Parliament's approval.
I wish to thank Ms Tan, Mr Saktiandi and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas, and also other Members for their support in clarifying the facts and, importantly, for showing appreciation to our public officers in MAS and MCCY. As Ms Tan said, they were working hard and they were doing their jobs.
In contrast, WP's Assoc Prof Jamus Lim and Mr Leong Mun Wai from PSP took a different approach. The Members made serious allegations regarding our public officers, regarding our agencies. I do not know why the Members have to take this approach, especially after I had explained what happened on Monday. I had clarified the facts on Monday. Why is it necessary for Mr Leong and Assoc Prof Lim to still want to throw our public officers under the bus? Why is that necessary, Sir?
Sir, I have explained earlier why MAS, when they received the capital reduction plan, needed time to assess, and this was only in mid of July. The officers needed time to go through this plan and because they were not aware of the undertakings and the details of MCCY's exemption that was given earlier. The exemption was gazetted, but the details and the conditions and the undertakings, those were not made public. So, I do not think it is fair for Mr Leong to expect that the MAS team would automatically know what those details are, when those details are not made public.
It was only after we had a fuller understanding of the set of issues after the 6 August Parliament Sitting that the MAS team saw that there could be a connection to what MCCY was looking at. And then they surfaced this to the Board and then we shared it with MCCY.
So, I hope that Mr Leong and Assoc Prof Lim could give our officers some credit, could understand what they were going through and also look at it from their perspective, from their point of view. They were not trying to do something wrong or, as Assoc Prof Lim mentioned, "to lead to multiple breakdowns of communications", or "to work in a siloed manner". That is certainly not what they were trying to do. They were trying their very best to do their work. And when they saw that there was a link, they shared the information. They surfaced it to the Board and then we shared the information with MCCY.
And this is how the Government then came together, across different parts of the Government, taking a whole-of-Government approach, coming to Parliament with this Bill, to seek Parliament's approval. This is the outcome of a whole-of-Government effort.
Mr Leong asked who should be in charge? Should the Cabinet not be in charge? I would like to ask Mr Leong, who do you think made the decision to take this Bill to Parliament, to come to Parliament? It is the Cabinet that decided that we could not allow the deal, in its current form, to proceed and that is why we are bringing this Bill to Parliament for approval.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I would also like to address two other points that Assoc Prof Lim mentioned in his speech earlier. First, he talked about SIRA, or the Significant Investments Review Act. Sir, we have explained this previously – I think Mr Saktiandi mentioned it earlier in his speech – that the purpose of SIRA is to look at Singapore's national security interests. And we will look at whether an entity is a key provider of security-related functions, especially when there are a few or no alternatives and whether it is adequately covered by existing sectorial legislation.
So, there is a rigorous process to decide what goes into SIRA and I hope Assoc Prof Jamus Lim understands that if we are too quick to put many entities under SIRA, that will go against what many other Members have spoken about earlier, that how then do you maintain investor confidence and have a pro-business operating environment? So, we must have a good basis, a good reason, before we decide that something needs to be designated under SIRA.
Assoc Prof Lim was also incorrect to point out that there are no controls if companies, like DBS and Singtel, were to sell their shares. I would urge Assoc Prof Lim to check his facts. MAS would have to approve any changes in significant shareholding for banks, including DBS, and IMDA would have to approve any changes in significant shareholding for telcos like Singtel.
Mr Deputy Speaker, Mr Saktiandi Supaat, Mr Yip Hong Weng, Mr Raj Joshua Thomas and Ms Usha Chandradas sought clarifications on the parameters of the proposed Bill. Mr Saktiandi and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas and, I believe, also Ms He Ting Ru, asked if the Bill only operates prospectively instead of retrospectively and if there would be any issues of retrospective application of the law.
Sir, the Bill does not affect any completed transaction and I would like to clarify that there is no formal application yet by Allianz to obtain effective control and become a substantial shareholder of Income. The contractual terms of the transaction clearly state that it is subject to regulatory approval by MAS. There is, therefore, no retrospective application of the law.
Mr Saktiandi, Ms He Ting Ru, Ms Hazel Poa and Ms Usha asked if the existing sections 26 and 27 of the Insurance Act would already allow whole-of-Government considerations to be taken into account, since the sections provide that MAS may approve an application, if the Authority is satisfied that the criteria are met.
To clarify, MAS takes into account all relevant considerations within the objects of the Insurance Act. There is currently no explicit provision under the Insurance Act for MAS to take into account the views of MCCY, which include questions relating to social mission, in assessing a proposed acquisition of an insurer with co-operative links. The proposed amendment will provide for that. MAS did not expand the scope of sections 26 and 27, as MCCY's views would not be relevant for insurers that are not linked to co-operatives.
And this is important, going back to the earlier point that Mr Mark Lee, Mr Neil Parekh and a few others mentioned, which is, we need to make sure that we still keep our operating environment one that is business-friendly and that investors will have confidence to continue to want to invest in Singapore. I think that is important and that is why we wanted to scope it tightly for this purpose and not have a general clause.
Ms Usha Chandradas also sought clarification on the interpretation of "conduct its business prudently" in the context of Income. Sir, this entails whether such an insurer will continue to be run in a safe and sound manner and safeguard policy-holder interests, consistent with MAS' prudential considerations under the Insurance Act.
To Mr Saktiandi's question on whether there should be a comprehensive summary of various classes and target companies, we do not think it is necessary. The current case involving Income is unique due to its co-operative history and social mission, setting it apart from typical insurers. For standard scenarios, the Insurance Act already clearly outlines the specific regulatory approvals required for such transactions.
Mr Liang Eng Hwa asked whether the proposed capital optimisation measures would weaken the capital adequacy of Income. I would like to first assure Members that MAS requires insurers to maintain, on an ongoing basis, adequate capital to address the risk of its insurance business and activities. As the capital required will increase as business risks increase, insurers may undertake capital optimisation measures, such as reinsurance to reduce the risk retained within the insurer, without shrinking its business or weakening it. This would, then, reduce the regulatory capital required to support the same business.
These measures that free up capital to be returned to shareholders is not an uncommon commercial practice, as Mr Liang has pointed out. And to be clear, in the case of Allianz, they had provided a preliminary business plan to MAS in mid-July regarding the capital reduction. There was no application from Allianz for capital reduction.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I would also like to address a comment that Mr Leong Mun Wai made earlier with regard to the capital reduction plan.
First, I think I have clarified that there was no application from Allianz. They only provided a preliminary business plan to MAS in mid-July. I also clarified on Monday and also today and a few Members have mentioned it as well, that the deal is still subject to MAS regulatory approval. I hope those facts are clear.
I do have an issue with how Mr Leong has described the capital reduction plan as an asset stripping exercise. And I do not think that is a fair description. I think Mr Leong deliberately chose that term and this is not the first time I have heard Mr Leong make unkind remarks towards NTUC.
Sir, NTUC has explained, the Members heard from Senior Minister of State Desmond Tan earlier and also other colleagues from the Labour Movement, that they are entering into this deal with the right intent. They acted in good faith. They wanted to do the right thing. They wanted to strengthen Income, so that Income is in a stronger position to serve its policy-holders and also to fulfil its social mission, because to do good, you must first do well. That was the intent.
We may have differences in views, as Minister Edwin Tong mentioned earlier, with regard to this deal, whether this deal is something that the Government would allow to proceed and we have come to the conclusion that we would not allow this deal to proceed. So, yes, there is a difference in views between what NTUC, NE, Income have put up and what the Government feels is the right way forward, but we do not disagree with the objectives of why we are doing this or why Income is doing this. The purpose of doing this is the right one. It is to strengthen Income and to do well, so that it can do good.
The Members of the Opposition often remind us that just because there are differences in views, it does not mean that we should automatically jump to the conclusion that you have a bad intention. I respect that view, Sir, so I would like to seek their agreement that, in this case, please also apply that consistently; that just because there is a difference in views, in terms of how the proposal is structured, it does not mean that you should conclude that NTUC and NE were doing this without a good intent. That would not be fair to our sisters and brothers from NTUC and NE. [Applause.]
Sir, Minister Edwin Tong has explained why we need this Bill, to give the Government the powers so that our view will prevail. And we do not want the deal in its current form to go through. However, we remain open to Income entering into a new deal, whether with Allianz or with another entity, if the outcome is that this can help to strengthen Income.
Mr Deputy Speaker, this Bill is being tabled and read on a Certificate of Urgency because the proposed deal by Allianz is under active consideration by Income's shareholders. The Bill will allow the Minister-in-charge of MAS to consider the views of the Minister charged with the responsibility of the CSA in applications to obtain effective control or become a substantial shareholder of a licensed insurer that is a co-op, has acquired the business of a co-op or has a substantial shareholder or effective controller that is a co-operative. The Minister-in-charge of MAS can then withhold approval if he considers it in the public interest to do so. The Minister-in-charge of MAS will also take into account prudential considerations under the Insurance Act in making his decision.
The Government has determined that this proposed transaction cannot proceed in its current form. However, we remain supportive of NE's and Income's efforts to look for a strong partner, including with Allianz or another entity, to strengthen Income's capital base and market position. The Government recognises and agrees that Income must do well before it is able to continue doing good on a sustained basis.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank Members, once again, for their support for the Bill. I hope I have clarified the concerns raised by Assoc Prof Jamus Lim and Ms He Ting Ru, and I sincerely hope that the WP can support this Bill. [Applause.]
We have had a thorough debate. We have had 19 speakers and the debate has lasted over three hours. Minister Chee Hong Tat, Minister Edwin Tong and Senior Minister of State Desmond Tan have responded, to all, if not the majority of the questions raised.
Be that as it may, given the urgency of this Bill and it being read the Second and Third time today, I will allow clarifications, but I seek the understanding of Members to keep the clarifications succinct and clear; and that be reciprocated by the front bench in targeted and accurate responses. So, I will do my best to allow as much clarification time as I am able to. Any clarifications? Assoc Prof Jamus Lim.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Let me start by stating unequivocally that I have deep respect for the hard work that our civil servants put in, often involving long hours and comparatively lower pay than they could have commanded in the private sector. But I feel that it is nevertheless imperative for me to highlight instances where the system that the civil service operates under, which is, to be clear, overseen by this Government, is problematic because our civil servants can only do the best they can within the constraints that they face from the Government of the day.
So, once again, to reiterate, I am critiquing the system, not the civil servants. I do not think it is useful to bring in the civil servants as pawns to a political argument.
To further clarify, I did not say that there are no protections for the sale of significant assets, like Singtel or DBS, but that additional protections are granted by SIRA. Accepting that we do not wish to list every possible Singapore firm under SIRA, I still have not heard a satisfactory reason as to why the designated entities are limited to only those within the military, industrial complex, whereas our Total Defence pillars clearly go into financial and digital elements.
Let me put this another way. Could I confirm with the Minister that this Government will never consider listing assets, such as DBS or Singtel, under SIRA?
Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to start by first requesting Assoc Prof Jamus Lim not to put words into my mouth. I did not refer to our public officers as pawns and I do not think he should too. We have deep respect for our public officers. We know that they work hard, they do their work well and it was not so clear earlier when Assoc Prof Lim was making all the criticisms of working in silos and having breakdowns of communications, that he was referring to the system.
If his concern is about the system, I have also explained on Monday and earlier, what happened and why it was not in the ordinary course of operations for MAS, when they are assessing information from a financial institution, to share that with another Government agency. If Assoc Prof Lim considers that as a failure, a systems failure, then I presume, maybe he could let me know what his counterproposal is.
Is he then suggesting – and I am not trying to put words in his mouth, I am only asking – that anytime MAS receives information, whether there is a reason or not, we should then share it with all other Government agencies? I hope that is not what Assoc Prof Lim is proposing. I think that will have an impact on investor confidence and it will affect our pro-business operating environment.
So, I have explained what happened with this particular case and I have also reiterated the chronology of what happened. I hope Assoc Prof Lim can accept that account of what happened and not keep repeating unfounded allegations about the public service officers in our system facing constraints from the Government of the day when it comes to sharing of information. I do not think there is any evidence, unless Assoc Prof Lim can produce evidence; otherwise, I would like him to please withdraw that rather serious allegation.
With regard to SIRA, I have already explained earlier that this has to do with national security and I also mentioned in my reply that we will also look at whether there are other Acts that cover some of these entities; and if there are, then there is no need to replicate this with SIRA.
So, the two examples that Assoc Prof Lim kept raising, DBS and Singtel, I have already explained that there are sectoral regulators – in the case of DBS, it will be MAS; in the case of Singtel, it will be IMDA – that would play the role of the gatekeeper. And if you want to acquire shares in DBS or in Singtel that goes beyond a certain percentage, you do need the regulator's approval before you are allowed to do so. So, in a way that is already covered.
Minister Edwin Tong, anything to add? No. Mr Leong Mun Wai. Succinct and straightforward, please. No, I have called you.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Allow me to do two responses to what the Minister had directed towards me during his speech. My first point is also about civil servants, something similar to what Member Assoc Prof Jamus Lim had just said. Today, I have not said anything about civil servants. What I have said is, I would like to acknowledge the effort put in by MCCY and MAS to scrutinise the transaction and come up with this Bill. So, this is an appreciation of the work done by MCCY and MAS.
But I have directed at the Ministers — it is the responsibility of the Cabinet Minister to ensure that they are appraised of all relevant and important information, and to consider them fully before making decisions and public pronouncements. I am saying that because on 6 August, we spent more than one hour clarifying during Question Time about this whole deal without complete information. So, we are running parallel all the time and you can also say that it was quite a waste of time. But what happened now is that now, with more information, we know that the Ministers and the NTUC CC, actually, they do not have the information on the capital reduction. So, we understand that point.
But still, we are concerned about the coordination and how things are being presented before the information is complete. So, that is one point. I want to respond to the Minister when he said that I am bringing in the civil servants and all that, a point that is similar to what Assoc Pro Jamus Lim has said.
The second point that the Minister has said is about my characterising the exercise as asset stripping. In finance, nobody with some knowledge about finance would disagree with me. It is a fact. It has nothing to do with the intent. You can intend. Your intentions can be good. But the plan that you put up, is actually not so good. You can even say detrimental. That is why the Government now is coming back after more work and saying, "Oh, this plan cannot go through". The plan is not a good plan, from the point of view of continuing with the social mission.
And I have got one more point to raise afterwards. It is that it is also not a plan that provides enough protection to policy-holders. I, myself, am a policy-holder. So, it is not fair for the Minister to say that I am trying to characterise the deal in bad light. I am just stating the fact. Anyone with basic financial knowledge would not disagree with me. This is an asset stripping exercise.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I was quite dismayed to hear Mr Leong Mun Wai describe the 6 August discussion in Parliament as, in his words, "a waste of time". It provided the opportunity for Members to ask questions, and for MCCY and MAS to clarify what is the status of the situation at that time; and then, to hear the concerns of the Members. I think it is not correct and I hope Mr Leong could withdraw that comment too, to describe that process as a waste of time.
The point about whether information should be made known during a discussion, I had clarified repeatedly that when we came to Parliament on 6 August, both Minister of State Alvin Tan and I made it clear that there was no regulatory approval given to the deal. It is something that is still being evaluated, considered and, therefore, in response to Mr Leong's point about how before we make any decision or pronouncement, we should have the full set of information. Indeed, that is why, after the 6 August Sitting, when MCCY received the information from MAS, the agencies then got together, the Ministers then got together and discussed, and eventually, Cabinet made a decision to bring this Bill to Parliament. This is the decision that we are seeking approval from Parliament.
So, I do not think there is any departure from what Mr Leong described as what he expects the Government to do. But on 6 August, there were Parliamentary Questions filed. Unless Mr Leong is suggesting that we do not answer Parliamentary Questions? If not, at that point in time, because the deal is still being considered, no approval was given yet, I think it was only correct that we gave replies based on information that we had at that point in time. But because there was no regulatory approval given, there was no decision or pronouncement by the Government.
The second point that Mr Leong raised, Mr Deputy Speaker – I find it quite odd that Mr Leong on one hand would say he is not trying to characterise it negatively and, on the other hand, he has made it quite clear that this is a bad deal.
We have explained why the capital reduction plan on its own would not be something that is uncommon. An entity, whether Income or another insurer, another financial institution, to do capital optimisation, I think Minister Edwin Tong explained this, I explained this as well and Mr Leong, I am sure, understands. Financial optimisation is something that entities, companies do regularly. So, this, by itself, is not wrong.
When MAS was looking at this initially, they were looking at it from a prudential point of view to see – if you do this, would Income still have the necessary capital to meet its capital adequacy ratio? From a prudential point of view, is this something that we would be prepared to consider?
But as I mentioned earlier in my closing speech, there was no application by Allianz on the capital reduction. They only submitted a preliminary business plan in mid-July. So, I would like to suggest that, perhaps, it is not very useful and productive for us to argue about different adjectives being used. But as Ms Hazel Poa said earlier, we let the public decide which phrase was used by Mr Leong and which phrase was used by me to describe this exercise. And the Hansard will reflect that Mr Leong did, indeed, say it is an asset stripping exercise.
Mr Ong Hua Han. Go ahead.
For Minister Edwin Tong, it has been a long day so I apologise if I failed to hear this in his response. I do understand that the factors were being looked at cumulatively. But referencing my speech, can the Minister clarify whether the lack of clear binding provisions or structural protection around Income's social mission alone is sufficient reason to merit the blocking of this deal?
Thank you, Mr Ong. I had mentioned a series of factors that we looked at, one of which is the lack of structural protection. So, this is taken in the context of the suite of terms as well as the circumstances in which the capital reduction was done and the amount, were cumulatively the factors that we took into account, not any one single factor on its own.
Ms Sylvia Lim.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I have two clarifications. First, I do not seem to recall either of the Ministers clarifying the questions raised by Ms He Ting Ru and Ms Hazel Poa about whether MAS needs this Bill. In other words, does MAS not have sufficient power within its current jurisdiction to take into account the public interest in having affordable financial products and, therefore, is this Bill really necessary? I do not recall either Minister touching on this point.
[Deputy Speaker (Ms Jessica Tan Soon Neo) in the Chair]
Second, as a clarification for Minister Chee Hong Tat, would he at least acknowledge that what Parliament is being asked to do today is to pass this legislation that is targeted at a live transaction, a particular one, to introduce a legislative change that would affect that live transaction? And does he not acknowledge that this sends a very bad signal to the business community about business certainty?
Mdm Deputy Speaker, I had actually covered both points in my closing speech earlier. But Ms Sylvia Lim may have missed it. So, with your permission, Madam, can I just read those sections again?
Please proceed.
Thank you. So, this is what I said earlier, that the Bill does not affect any completed transaction because there is no formal application yet by Allianz to obtain effective control and become a substantial shareholder of Income. And, therefore, there is no retrospective application of the law. So, that is what I have said. There is no formal application yet by Allianz.
Second, the point about why MAS does not have the powers, I have also explained this, that in the existing sections 26 and 27 of the Insurance Act, there is not an explicit provision under the Insurance Act for MAS to take into account the views of MCCY, which will include questions relating to social mission in assessing a proposed acquisition of an insurer with co-operative links.
[Deputy Speaker (Mr Christopher de Souza) in the Chair]
So, we cannot rely on the existing provisions without this set of amendments. And because it is a proposal that is under consideration by shareholders, there is urgency. So, yes, we do not disagree that there is a deal that is being considered. But it is a fact, Sir, that there is no formal application by Allianz to MAS.
Ms Hazel Poa.
I thank Minister Chee Hong Tat for his reply on sections 26 and 27. I agree that there are no specific provisions at the moment to take into account MCCY's views, but at the same time, the existing legislation does not prohibit MAS from taking into account those views. It is actually left open. So, why are sections 26 and 27 not sufficient?
My second clarification is referring to Minister Edwin Tong's reply that the capital resilience can be improved by re-insuring. My point was that the reason for this sale of Income Insurance was presented as the need to improve capital resilience. But if the capital resilience is actually improved through re-insurance, then it has nothing to do with this acquisition by Allianz. So, why is that presented as the reason?
Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank Ms Hazel Poa for acknowledging my explanation that there is no explicit provision under the Insurance Act for MAS to take into account the views of MCCY relating to social mission.
Sir, if we depart from what MAS has been doing all these years as a prudential regulator under sections 26 and 27, where we assess applications from financial institutions, to suddenly say that we now will take into account social mission because we interpret this very broadly. First, that itself could lead to more uncertainty for the industry players because they will be wondering, the next time, would you then change the interpretation to something else again without being clear about the reasons why you are doing it and being transparent about how you are doing it.
That is why, as Ms Jessica Tan mentioned earlier, we prefer to take a more open and transparent approach of coming to Parliament to seek Parliament's approval for this change, to address the concerns that we have but to do so in a tightly-scoped manner so that the rest of the industry who are not co-operatives or who have no links to co-operatives need not worry that this new provision taking into account social mission will also apply to them.
Ms He Ting Ru. Oh, Minister Edwin Tong, do you want to add to Minister Chee's reply?
Yes, I was going to respond to Ms Hazel Poa's second question. Again, as I said just now, I am not able to and I am not going to speak on behalf of Income. But the Member did make a point and she suggested in her speech that the statement, which I got her to confirm earlier, that capital resiliency following the transaction was misleading. That is the point I was trying to make. Earlier on, we agreed that that is the reference that the Member was making in paragraph 7.
So, the point really is this, Ms Poa. The transaction is contemplated between an insurer, Income; and another insurer, Allianz. It is also proposed that following the transaction, the plan was to optimise capital. One of the ways in which it was going to be done was to re-insure a portion or a portfolio of Income's risk.
Taken together, the statement, therefore, that after the transaction is carried out, its capital resiliency would be improved is, in my view, not misleading. That was the explanation I gave to the Member. I also explained to the Member that we could improve capital resiliency in a number of different ways such that even after capital reduction, we could still have an adequate capital adequacy ratio.
Ms He Ting Ru.
Thank you, Sir. I have two clarifications for the Minister-in-charge of MAS and one clarification for the Minister for MCCY.
In relation to my clarification for the Minister-in-charge of MAS, I think the Minister mentioned twice that there was no formal application made by Allianz in relation to this proposed acquisition of the majority stake in Income. I just wanted to ask some clarification because in the proposed new section 33A of the Act, in subsection 9, it states, and I quoted this in my speech actually, "This section applies also to a relevant application received by the authority before the date of commencement of the Insurance Amendment Act 2024 that is still pending as of that date." Can the Minister clarify whether this refers to this transaction or another transaction? That is my first clarification.
My second clarification relates to the points I made about why the urgency of this Bill, such that within three days, this needs to be passed, going through a Second and Third Reading. The question here is that the Minister mentioned earlier the reason why we are rushing through this Bill under a Certificate of Urgency is because this deal is under active consideration by shareholders.
From my understanding of this, shareholders can vote however they want, they can consider however they want. But honestly, the offer is ultimately subject to regulatory approval and this is why it is called a pre-conditional offer on the offer document. I am just wondering, I also mentioned in my speech, given that the long-stop date is nine months from the date of announcement, why is there this rush to do this? That is my second clarification.
My clarification for the Minister for MCCY is in relation to the exemption granted to the 2023 gazetted Exemption Order. I believe the Minister mentioned that there is some flexibility needed to allow the use of the surplus to achieve the mission. I just wanted the Minister to clarify that no conditions were imposed on the use of the surplus in that respect.
I had answered Ms He's question and when I used the word flexible. It was in the context of my answer to Mr Keith Chua's query about the extent to which social mission might evolve. That was when I used the word flexible. But in the context of the exemption, there was a series of discussions. I mentioned in my speech on Monday that we engaged with Income over a period of time. We exchanged views. They sent various letters representing their position. It was on this basis that the corporatisation and the exemption was granted.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to confirm that there is no formal application from Allianz to MAS. The provision that Ms He mentioned, that is inserted more for avoidance of doubt.
The second point that Ms He raised, this Bill is urgent. We need a Certificate of Urgency because the deal is under consideration by shareholders. So, to have a long period between the First Reading and the Second Reading before the amended law takes effect, will actually give rise to more uncertainty in the market and for the parties concerned. That is why we are putting forth this Bill for Parliament's consideration and for approval.
We are at the three-and-a-half-hour mark. We started this debate at 3.50 pm. It is now coming to 7.25 pm. I see the hands are really hands of Members who have already asked questions. I will allow there to be a second round of clarifications.
Just to confirm, I see the hands of Ms He Ting Ru, Ms Hazel Poa, Assoc Prof Jamus Lim and Mr Leong Mun Wai. Are there any more clarifications beyond these hon Members?
None. So, I invite the four hon Members to keep their clarifications succinct and clear. We will start with Ms He Ting Ru, followed by Assoc Prof Jamus Lim, Mr Leong Mun Wai and then Ms Hazel Poa.
Thank you, Sir. I am still a bit confused because, as I mentioned earlier, the deal is a pre-conditional offer. It is always subject to regulatory approval. Again, the shareholders can consider that. We have a nine-month-long stop-date. I do not really understand why the Minister is saying that, given that it is under consideration by the shareholders, we have to rush through. Because shareholders know that regulatory approvals take a certain amount of time and they know that all these are actually being debated and then the amendments are being proposed. I am not entirely sure that the two are necessarily connected.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I have already explained the reasons from the Government's point of view. I accept that Ms He Ting Ru may have a different view, but I have explained why we want to provide greater certainty on the decision and on the changes to the legislation for the different stakeholders, including the shareholders but also other parties who are involved in this deal. That is the reason why we are doing it with a Certificate of Urgency, but, it is, of course, subject to Parliament's approval.
Assoc Prof Jamus Lim.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker, for your indulgence. I do not plan to prolong this, but Minister Chee Hong Tat had requested that I withdraw an allegation, if I am correct, that there was a communication breakdown between different arms of the Civil Service. I am happy to make this withdrawal, but I am a little puzzled because it is actually in his words that there was an information gap, this was presented on Monday, between MAS and MCCY. I understand I characterised this as a communication breakdown instead, but perhaps Minister Chee Hong Tat is triggered by the word "breakdown". Again, I am happy to withdraw the statement if he thinks it is a matter of terminology.
The second point is that he had asked me to make a suggestion and I did so in my speech, for how I think we should go forward. This is the constructive part and that is that future transactions of such strategic importance should at the outset involve the establishment of a multi-Ministry task force.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I also do not want to prolong this debate, but just to clarify, I was not asking Assoc Prof Jamus Lim to withdraw his comment about the communication breakdown. He is entitled to use that phrase if he prefers to. I was referring to his comment that the public officers are unable to share information due to constraints imposed by the government of the day.
That was what I would like to request that Assoc Prof Lim to withdraw, that comment, because that is not true. We do not put barriers to prevent our public service officers to share information. In fact, in this case, the decision to share information was proposed by the public officers and supported by the political office holders on the MAS Board.
Mr Leong Mun Wai.
Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have two questions for the Minister. One is that he did not quite answer what I have asked in the speech. Did the Government or MCCY make an effort to ask Allianz whether there is a way that this deal can be aborted without us having to come and debate a new law and introduce a new law for this? That is maybe one way of doing it.
Well, I heard some laughter in the Chamber, but this is very common. I am in the finance industry for a long time. If the regulator comes to you and says, "I think, your deal, maybe you can consider this and that." Then, there will be negotiation going on. So, that should be something — If you did not do anything on that, then it is okay. I am just seeking an answer whether you did ask Allianz for that.
Secondly, and it is a wish on the part of policy-holders – and I have repeated many times that I myself am an Income policy-holder – we have supported Income all these years. There is a lot of trust because Income is a company that is under the NTUC and we Singaporeans have a lot of trust in Income.
Over the years, because of our support, there is a lot of surpluses built up in terms of the policies, in the policy funds they are accruing to the policy-holders. So, can I ask the Minister whether the Government can do something to remind NTUC that in the future, when they sell the company, if they have a new deal, their social responsibility will also cover their responsibility to the policy-holders. It is not just the responsibility of the social mission that the Government is talking about.
Because it really worries me that you get an acquiror, potentially, and I am not referring to anybody that comes in and what they are interested in is capital restructuring. When you restructure the capital, you go and find all kinds of surpluses in the company, you know. And another surplus that an insurance company potentially has is in the policy fund of the policy-holders.
What I am saying is that I was wondering whether I can get assurance from the Minister that this message will be passed on to NTUC.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I will address the first question that Mr Leong raised. I have explained earlier that we have engaged Allianz and what their response is. Along the way, because they were submitting business plans, there were certainly discussions between MAS and Allianz on what they have submitted.
I do want to make a point, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Government, when it comes to dealing with our licensees and with industry players, we would like to take the approach of being open and transparent, and that if we have concerns with the deal, we have our reasons, we would rather do it in a manner like what we are doing now, come to Parliament with the proposed Bill, explain why we are doing it, rather than — and I hope that is not what Mr Leong is suggesting, because to go to the company and say, as a regulator, "I don't think you should be doing this and I think you should be backing off."
I think if you do that, you may actually send more uncertainty and create more worries in the industry. Mr Leong is shaking his head. I do not know whether that means he agrees with me that that is not what we should do, or he thinks that that is what we should do. If he thinks that that is what we should do, then I would say that we have to disagree, because we believe that as the regulator, to uphold the reputation of our regulatory system and the transparency of our financial sector, to be able to continue to attract investors, as what several Members had spoken about, I think it is important that we deal with our licensees in a manner which is above board and that they understand.
So, if you look at the reaction from Allianz, they said they understood the Government's decision and I think that is important because we want to continue to be a place that foreign investors, companies want to come to, create more good jobs for our people. I think that is important.
Minister Edwin Tong
Mr Leong, I said earlier that it is not for us to tell Income or indeed any party what to do and how to run their business. You also mentioned that as a policy-holder yourself and you sort of conflated that point with surpluses, and suggested that there might be some risk to the surpluses, these are all subject to capital adequacy ratios that Income is complying with, and in fact, they will be required to comply with. So, from that perspective, I think you do not have to worry.
Ms Hazel Poa
I would just like to clarify that my point was not that the capital resilience after the sale is misleading. If I misunderstood the Minister earlier, I apologise.
My point has always been that presenting improving capital resilience as the reason for the sale is misleading, because we now see that the capital resilience is improved through re-insurance, not through the sale to Allianz.
I thank Ms Poa for clarifying, but I think when I first answered the Member's question, I quoted the Member, and I asked her whether that is what she meant and the Member said yes. So, that is how I answered her question.
But be that as it may, the point is, in this transaction, they were entering into a transaction with an insurer and had plans to re-insure part of their portfolio of risk. And so, the simple point really is, in that context, the statement that was made in the reference the Member gave, paragraph 7, is not misleading, because there will be improvement to capital resiliency after the transaction.
I think we have respected the importance of this Bill through a close to four-hour debate. And I think it is timely to put the question to the House.
The question is, that the Bill be now read a Second time. As many as are of that opinion, say "Aye".
Hon Members said "Aye"
To the contrary say "No".
Mr Deputy Speaker, Members from the WP would like our abstention recorded.
Yes, I listened carefully to Ms He Ting Ru who, if I am not mistaken, said, "We need to register our abstention on this Bill." So, does that apply to just Ms He Ting Ru or all of WP?
The party, Sir.
Are you abstaining or are you objecting?
Abstaining.
Could you stand up, please, so that we can record your abstentions?
Hon Members Mr Chua Kheng Wee Louis, Mr Gerald Giam Yean Song, Ms He Ting Ru, Assoc Prof Jamus Jerome Lim, Ms Sylvia Lim, Mr Muhamad Faisal Bin Abdul Manap, Mr Dennis Tan Lip Fong rose in their place for their abstention to be recorded.
There are seven abstentions. Less those seven abstentions, everybody else has voted "Aye".
Thank you, Sir.
I declare that the "Ayes" have it, the "Ayes" have it.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
At this point, I wish to state my opinion that the Bill is a Hybrid Bill. Although the provisions of the Bill are drafted in general terms, it is clear from the Ministerial Statement by the Minister for Culture, Community and Youth on 14 October 2024 and from the Second Reading debate today, that the Bill is in substance, aimed at the proposed acquisition of the Income Insurance Limited by Allianz Europe BV.
Consequently, under the provisions of Standing Order No 68, the Bill should ordinarily after the Second Reading, be referred to a Select Committee. However, Standing Order 86 provides that notwithstanding the provisions of any Standing Order, when a Certificate of Urgency signed by the President of the Republic of Singapore, has been laid on the table, the Bill to which the Certificate relates, may be proceeded with throughout all its stages until such Bill has been read the Third time.
Standing Order No 86, therefore, takes an urgent Bill outside the ambit of Standing Order No 68. The Bill before the House today can therefore be committed to a Committee of the whole House, despite Standing Order No 68.
Therefore, I ask, Committee stage, what day?
Now, Sir, I beg to move that Parliament will immediately resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
The House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill. – [Mr Chee Hong Tat].
Bill considered in Committee and reported without amendment.
The question posed by the Minister is, that the Bill be now read a Third time. As many as are of that opinion, say "Aye".
Hon Members said "Aye".
To the contrary say "No".
Mr Deputy Speaker, again, the Members of the WP would like our abstention recorded.
So, you are abstaining and not objecting?
Abstaining.
Could I ask all those who are seeking to abstain to stand up in front of your seats?
Hon Members Mr Chua Kheng Wee Louis, Mr Gerald Giam Yean Song, Ms He Ting Ru, Assoc Prof Jamus Jerome Lim, Ms Sylvia Lim, Mr Muhamad Faisal Bin Abdul Manap, Mr Dennis Tan Lip Fong rose in their place for their abstention to be recorded.
There being seven abstentions, and notwithstanding the seven, everyone else in the Chamber has voted "Aye". I think the "Ayes" have it, the "Ayes" have it.
Bill read a Third time and passed.